Is digital art going to change the way we create, consume and commission artworks?

INT: But you’ve both become involved in the space despite your works, and the ideas behind them, being visually dissimilar?

TJ: Well, David, your work is different. You’re an exception to the rule in that you have created a world around yourself. You’ve created an ethos, a manifesto, beyond the visual itself which translates to people in that space. I think that’s part of the reason your work has been successful. But other work on there, I see it and I cannot for the life of me understand why it is popular, why it sells. In a weird way, that’s kind of exciting.

DR: One of the reasons I wanted to get involved is that I do feel, to some extent, our generation – by which I mean individuals who have some formative practice that emerged prior to virtual value – has things that mean a lot to us that we want to test. The shocking factor is that those values are being called into question when we’re showing images and ideas to a generation that isn’t accepting the value we say is evident. It’s a beautiful opportunity – but also a burden – to make a case of why any of this stuff is worth looking at. If we don’t, we may lose the opportunity to bring any of that value into this space.

TJ:I agree with what you’re saying undoubtedly, but it’s a reflection of some of things that are going on, not the be all and end all?

DR: It’s emergent. We don’t know how much it will continue to form a central position of how culture organises, but I do think one thing that is unavoidable is that its emergence is scaled up to its volume. It’s based around investment in blockchain infrastructure, like Ethereum. The bigger that grows, the more of our world that is in this ecosystem will come to be dominated by ETH billionaires, not fiscal billionaires. The more of their taste, of what they feel represents culture, will then start to be manifested in the spaces around us.

INT: What has been your experience with the platforms in which these works-on-chain are hosted?

TJ: I used Foundation because it is simple. I understand it. It was simply translatable, it had an FAQ. It worked for me, but in terms of their personal incentives I am sure it’s not too different from David’s. Hopefully they are people who have an idea of how to use this medium to explore creativity and make a living from it at the same time.

DR: The space is currently in beta. Trevor is completely right, a lot of the tools are not user friendly and it’s hard to penetrate. But, all the things being built to make this a normal, natural interface for creatives are being built in real time.

However, I am cautious of curated spaces where the industry is coordinated to 300 main characters who dominate conversation and control the aesthetics of what makes sense in the space. When it becomes a monocultural space, rather than a subcultural space. Certain elements, like an FAQ, lean towards a one size fits all of how to use it. As Trevor has realised, platforms like Foundation have a front page with 40 works on there, but it’s basically down to who gets those featured spots and it quickly becomes a centralised model.

I am placing work on Foundation because I didn’t think it was enough to just put all work on Zora; then we’ll be off in the ghetto with the weird art again and watch the mainstream go to Foundation. I am going to try to do work that I think is actually good, and think of ways to use a platform to push the conversation.

INT: But do you think there is space for something in between the two? The FAQ, curated model and a more open, but perhaps complicated to use platform?

DR: I am not arguing that the space should be for pro-users only. What is being built is perhaps a path to a model where it will be fundamental that everyone has a wallet where you can hold cryptocurrency. You can interact with the blockchain, build sites and this wallet is the primary mode of connection. Then there will be tools where it will be as simple as pressing a button, the same way you use a PayPal button to pay, to mint an image. No one in the space is mad that you can right click and save their jpeg, but the point is there will probably be a right click to bid on this NFT, or be able to look up the owner. We will get to that level of user normalcy if wallet adoption becomes normalised.

TJ: But then again even that is not easy! I had to ask three different people how on earth to set this up. This is why this conversation is so interesting. So much of what you’re saying is alien to me as just sorting a wallet, getting the crypto, was a pain in the arse.

DR Remember what it used to be like to connect to the internet, though? Buy a huge modem box, plug in an ethernet, listen to that whirring noise for a minute or two just to get online. The difficulty curve for user adoption is obviously steep and yes, it means people operating in the space have already passed a test to get there, but that doesn’t mean in five years getting a wallet won’t be as simple.

TJ: Actually, if it was so simple, I don’t think it would be a bad thing. In the sea of so much you need curators, undoubtedly for me the most important people in my sphere are the curators. Twenty years ago I would know everything, every record coming out, every book, film, but now it’s too much. My brain is overloaded and it really helps to have recommendations from others I admire or respect in a variety of mediums. I don’t have an issue with an NFT space that isn’t so democratic and potentially curated.

DR: The role of the curator is of course important, but I prefer the model where the curator is independent from the marketplace. It’s not Spotify’s front page that gives me my music recommendations, but instead a record shop, for example. To receive that recommendation from someone passionate about sharing the content. The roll-out of individual, user-focused tools will hopefully allow for more sites or gallery-style spaces to develop. I don’t think the future is sites, I think the future is essentially networks.

INT: I am interested then, if you have bought anything?

TJ: From what I see I think there is only a very small amount of people spending a lot of money?

DR: It’s definitely dominated by whales. I will say this, if you asked me when I listed my first NFT if I thought I would ever buy one, the answer would have been no, this isn’t for me. I have to say now, though, I don’t just have one or two, and there have been projects launched that I think are actually brilliant.

TJ: But would you say they are by artists in your community?

DR: They are by artists I admire, but it’s not an act of charity. For example, I bought a piece by Ezra Miller, a brilliant artist who is definitely of a different generation to me.

TJ: But he is from your world. Side stepping slightly, I think it’s hard for you to see it because you’re inside it, but you are unique in your space. You have created a mythology around yourself, which is a fascinating and fantastic thing to do, but it is unique amongst contemporary designers. In that space you have people around you which I would describe as a school. It is completely authentic, but it still remains potentially difficult for someone outside of that space to penetrate it and be successful. It goes back to why people are slightly scared of it.

DR: I hear you, but my perspective on why I engage with it is not because I want to be in it. You described me as someone who is a habitual non-conformist, but I believe this space is a part of where we will go. I am passionate, invested and concerned about the future of visual media. I participate not because I identify with it, but because some of the systems and techniques that emerge will define visual culture for the next 20 to 30 years.

I passionately believe that without people who are prior to this space getting involved and expanding the possibilities, there is a danger that we will sit back and let someone pick the answers for us. For those unfamiliar with the space questioning the participation they want, I would say it is not a spectator sport if you are creative. The work you buy will have an impact on the work you’ll be creating in a few years’ time, so you should really think about what you want to support. If you have a practice that is reliant on you being seen as an individual practitioner and you buy a bunch of apes to flip them, buyer beware, as it might make it harder for you to sell an illustration in the future.

INT: Do you think that the emergence of works on chain will alter the commissioning process? For editorial sites like ours or agencies?

David: I hope so! The way those people have been commissioned over the last 20 years has been appalling and exploitative. One of the things I thought was really fascinating about last year was that a whole generation of creatives – who have really struggled at the mercy of a marketplace where opportunities come and go – realised they could make money far more reliably selling and controlling their own work than having to work as a client service. There are lots of negatives in this space but unquestionably the current model hasn’t been good enough for way too many people who are talented, passionate and want to make a livelihood making creative work.

TJ: That is somewhat over-generalising. Undoubtedly there are magazines or practices that have great relationships commissioning people. I don’t like the concept that all commissioned work is evil, I don’t even think direction is evil.

But this space is not everything. It comes back to what we’ve discussed around authenticity and you creating your own world. For me, I think in all forms of culture creating your own space is where the strength is at. It used to be that you had to live in London, New York, or Paris, but now you can live anywhere and creating your own space, with your own compatriots, will give you a better chance at succeeding.